PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 2)

News from the Pro Evolution / Winning Eleven gaming world, discussions from the posts on WinningElevenBlog.com and general PES & WE discussions

Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 2)

Postby danielrh » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:57 am

Hi guys been reading these past couple of pages (on a tablet - laptops gone kaput)

firstly looking at the orginal example @Matt10 put up to point out players postitioning, I've noticed that in the picture both teams are using advanced tactics, it's looking like they both are going for it end to end attacking

remembering what @B-Man has mentioned during E3 that guys who use pressure tactics (this year) will be giving up alot of space and could find themsleves in trouble

so examine postioning further when teams are not activiating the advanced tactics to get a more accurate reading

@Philla postioning was'nt part of the problem (especailly when playing online) it was 1. pass assistance way to accurate and 2, unfortunatley headers were over accurate as well

@Pesmunki great examples of player postitioning even in real life players lose concntration and end up out of position and lose their shape.

@B-Man I totally understand your concern and I have your back brother we need to proctect our game

good day gentlemen
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 2)

Postby LynnMcG23 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:59 am

jmcorp wrote:The hypocrisy is amazing :roll:

Just moments ago, WE9 LE was used as this amazing example of perfect positioning in a football game by vital and others. And then Pesmunki proceeds to show multiple examples where 6,7 and even 9 players can be found located near the center circle, with considerable space disconnecting those players from the play. This is supposed to be a huge problem in PES, but we can see such positioning is possible in WE9 LE which is the bastion of correct positioning apparently.

All of a sudden vitals responds by saying "the comparison to WE9 is unnecessary" :lol:

This is embarrassing.

Pesmunki wrote:WE9 LE

Image

Ball in the box, about to be chested by Ibra, 11 players in or around...

...9 in the centre circle.

Do you get the picture?


Totally agree mate i've been cringing like **** regarding some posts over here, Also it was not so long ago Vital used to ridicule Matt on his views of PES now because Matt is going to town on it due to player positioning Vital has went from ridiculing him to be completely in bed with him, Totally embarrassing.

If only Matt put so much effort into his beloved Fifa we might actually see some improvements from EA? Doubtful but you never know.
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 2)

Postby vital » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:17 am

The termites are out to feed I see. I predict an equally useless post by zeus0r any second now, we need to hear from the full roster of deluded Konami apologists.
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 2)

Postby Philla » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:37 am

LynnMcG23 wrote:
Philla wrote:What people tend to forget is that player position is just a part of the problem.

PES2017 and what we know about PES2018 so far are lacking in player aggression and the right understanding of marking. Even IF players position would be spot on (and we all have seen we are far from that like never before), the CPU AI is such easy to fool by the over-efficiency of 180 degree turns and diagional runs - a result of the pilotfish acceleration, bad marking angles and aggression timing.

To underline this, here is a video that illustrates the dimensions of this problem by the extreme use of this, which shouldn´t be possible in a soccer game, especially not in a simulation rooted one on highest difficulty level. By the way, the shortcomings in attacking AI (TheCloser mentioned them) are documented very well.



If you don´t suffer a Peter Pan syndrome and are not interested in "playing PES right", this is truly gamebreaking and quite worse than player positioning.


Fake video, I played on Superstar and Bar dont sit off you like that certainly not the PS4 version. Seems also that your getting called out in the comments for posting a fake video.

Also your German?


It´s definitely on superstar, PS4 demo. Otherwise it would be much easier to score, as the defence is starting to get tight in the final 3rd.

I really hope you don´t make your mind out of teenage rage comments.
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 2)

Postby harmonyvid35 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:45 am

It baffles me that people think Pes needs no improvements to things. To hear that there is no problem with this or that is incredible. Pes needs so much work for improvement in every single area. Nothing can't be looked at, the game doesn't have the luxury.
This way of thinking is why it went from being king to a non contender to whatever the hell Pes16/17 was.
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 2)

Postby PES Russia » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:21 pm

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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 2)

Postby LynnMcG23 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:48 pm

harmonyvid35 wrote:It baffles me that people think Pes needs no improvements to things. To hear that there is no problem with this or that is incredible. Pes needs so much work for improvement in every single area. Nothing can't be looked at, the game doesn't have the luxury.
This way of thinking is why it went from being king to a non contender to whatever the hell Pes16/17 was.

This is a myth that you guys that constantly moan have came up with, I;ve not seen a single person on this forum say PES is perfect and needs no improvements, We can clearly see PES 2018 is massively improved it wont be to you, Vital or Philla of course but any sane person can see the improvements happening year on year but due to it being a yearly game and not a 4 year dev time like most games we only see smaller changes each year due to time constraints and these changes are obviously not enough for you. Take a few years out and come back to PES once many changes happen.
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 2)

Postby Pesmunki » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:13 pm

LynnMcG23 wrote:
harmonyvid35 wrote:It baffles me that people think Pes needs no improvements to things. To hear that there is no problem with this or that is incredible. Pes needs so much work for improvement in every single area. Nothing can't be looked at, the game doesn't have the luxury.
This way of thinking is why it went from being king to a non contender to whatever the hell Pes16/17 was.



This is a myth that you guys that constantly moan have came up with, I;ve not seen a single person on this forum say PES is perfect and needs no improvements, We can clearly see PES 2018 is massively improved it wont be to you, Vital or Philla of course but any sane person can see the improvements happening year on year but due to it being a yearly game and not a 4 year dev time like most games we only see smaller changes each year due to time constraints and these changes are obviously not enough for you. Take a few years out and come back to PES once many changes happen.


In bold ^^^^^^^^^^

Exactly that.

Cheers pal.
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 2)

Postby dove » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:18 pm

LynnMcG23 wrote:
harmonyvid35 wrote:It baffles me that people think Pes needs no improvements to things. To hear that there is no problem with this or that is incredible. Pes needs so much work for improvement in every single area. Nothing can't be looked at, the game doesn't have the luxury.
This way of thinking is why it went from being king to a non contender to whatever the hell Pes16/17 was.

This is a myth that you guys that constantly moan have came up with, I;ve not seen a single person on this forum say PES is perfect and needs no improvements, We can clearly see PES 2018 is massively improved it wont be to you, Vital or Philla of course but any sane person can see the improvements happening year on year but due to it being a yearly game and not a 4 year dev time like most games we only see smaller changes each year due to time constraints and these changes are obviously not enough for you. Take a few years out and come back to PES once many changes happen.

I don't think anyone here says PES doesn't look improved from last year. Of course every game improves year by year, we have better animations, better lighting, improved physics etc. Problem with PES is that there is no part in the game that you could say is light years ahead of FIFA. The only thing that you could argue about is the feeling of freedom when you pass, other parts of the game like online, presentation, UI, graphics from game cam etc. look really really 5 years behind FIFA. It's just not good enough knowing that PES mostly concentrates on gameplay however most of the parts are still better in FIFA like shooting, player collision system and it's balanced much better for player versus player. It's great that PES looks more fluid this year but if there will be no updates on online and other game modes, it will be a major disappointment again.
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 2)

Postby Philla » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:20 pm

Small and steady enhancements are absolutely okay if the core is solid as it has been during the PS2 days. In times of PES being at the edge of unplayability for a significant number of people, the patience decreases especially when key areas are lacking that once where the strength of the series.
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 2)

Postby LynnMcG23 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:36 pm

dove wrote:
LynnMcG23 wrote:
harmonyvid35 wrote:It baffles me that people think Pes needs no improvements to things. To hear that there is no problem with this or that is incredible. Pes needs so much work for improvement in every single area. Nothing can't be looked at, the game doesn't have the luxury.
This way of thinking is why it went from being king to a non contender to whatever the hell Pes16/17 was.

This is a myth that you guys that constantly moan have came up with, I;ve not seen a single person on this forum say PES is perfect and needs no improvements, We can clearly see PES 2018 is massively improved it wont be to you, Vital or Philla of course but any sane person can see the improvements happening year on year but due to it being a yearly game and not a 4 year dev time like most games we only see smaller changes each year due to time constraints and these changes are obviously not enough for you. Take a few years out and come back to PES once many changes happen.

I don't think anyone here says PES doesn't look improved from last year. Of course every game improves year by year, we have better animations, better lighting, improved physics etc. Problem with PES is that there is no part in the game that you could say is light years ahead of FIFA. The only thing that you could argue about is the feeling of freedom when you pass, other parts of the game like online, presentation, UI, graphics from game cam etc. look really really 5 years behind FIFA. It's just not good enough knowing that PES mostly concentrates on gameplay however most of the parts are still better in FIFA like shooting, player collision system and it's balanced much better for player versus player. It's great that PES looks more fluid this year but if there will be no updates on online and other game modes, it will be a major disappointment again.



Why would anything be light years ahead of Fifa? EA/Fifa are selling 12 million copes each year ploughing so much money into the game while little old Konami is clinging on to dear life. How long did it take EA to make a decent collision system? 5 years or more? It was dreadful for years way worse than PES 2017 and even nown it still struggles at times with players falling over each other. Shooting wise to me Fifa 17 is the first game for Fifa that the shooting has felt good was pretty awful before that but again it really struggles with things like volleys and first time shots.

Saying that though many would argue the core gameplay is "light years" ahead of Fifa. ;) And they'd be right but you are right as Fifa is light years ahead on the bells and whistles.

PES 2018 will be a major disappointment for you but for many that's not so.
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 2)

Postby danielrh » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:42 pm

Philla wrote:Small and steady enhancements are absolutely okay if the core is solid as it has been during the PS2 days. In times of PES being at the edge of unplayability for a significant number of people, the patience decreases especially when key areas are lacking that once where the strength of the series.


me personally guys who I trust and respect like B-Man and Jose they like what they played it's looking like alot of the core (as you put it) has been addressed.

the important thing for us PESfans is we don't what Konami to now go and make unnecessary changes which could harm the (as you've put it) the core.

PES2018 is shaping up nicely indeed.
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 2)

Postby Pesmunki » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:53 pm

Matt10 wrote:Goodness, guys. Really?

The WE9LE video. That's not really fair, as it's out of context.



I am simply saying "hey, there's an issue here, please look at it", but you're basically saying "no, there's no issue, here are examples of players doing it.." then you proceed to post photos that are out of context from the video explanation, and not similar in nature at all.

At the end of the day, what is the harm in the possibility this is an issue? What will be ruined? Even then, does it affect you that much? If someone wants tighter nets, but I don't, do I go on a spree explaining how there shouldn't be tighter nets? No. That's important to someone, so I'll respect it.

This positioning issue, is important as well, and not just for me. That whole quantity over quality feedback that KONAMI listen to...well 2k views and 60+ thumbs up, with no thumbs down should say something. And you know I'm not being boastful, I am simply pointing out that your community of PES players and die hard players, are genuinely concerned with the video evidence of poor positioning as well. Join them.


@Matt10...

I'm addressing this to you and you only...

(as I think, as LynnMcG just posted, the others are just jumping on your coat tails because they think you've unearthed some great negative that can be exploited).

I'm movin on from this dude, to be honest I'm fed up with it.

I just think it's fair I address just a couple of points (in bold above) that you've raised in your last post then I'm leaving it there mate, as you seem to be a good guy and that's that really.

I'm sticking to my original point that I said.

It's too early to tell.

I never said as you've put above "no, there's no issue, here are examples of players doing it.."

I just posted examples of times when I found the opposite to what you'd highlighted.

You also say my examples are out of context.

I respectfully disagree for these reasons.

The WE9 LE video was posted as an example of the type of positioning we should be looking PES to attain. So it's perfectly in context to take examples from it. It is not out of context.

Neither are the numerous examples from real matches I posted out of context. How can they be? They're taken from real matches. It's perfectly apt to find examples where the positioning is the opposite of you're saying is an issue, that's got to be in context.

Lastly, and I really am leavin this one on this. You said that my Dortmund example, specifically the Falcao goal somehow didn't count because, among other things, the players were "gassed out" which to us means knackered! :lol:

That may or may not be the case, but you failed to comment on my first set of images from that game, where Mbappe scores. Here it is...


Image

Look at the clock. 18 minutes gone. Do you really think the players are back on the half way line because they're "gassed / knackered"? I don't. It's just simply a 4 man attack from Monaco.

I'll sum it up like this now.

I know you're striving for "realistic" gaming. I'm on exactly that same page with you, as loads of your subscribers are, as you've rightly pointed out.

I just think its inconclusive that its "ALWAYS" an issue.

Some agree with you.

Some agree with me.

More importantly I think the "physical" coming together of players is the area that needs the bigger focus. It looks like with the new "shielding" animations and mechanics are getting the attention they need. How players tackle, battle for the ball, tussle, shoulder tackle etc this is what will improve things first, before "positioning" for positioning's sake.

I agree with the B-Man...

It's potentially the single biggest new feature that might, just might improve the gameplay to another level again.

And in the famous words of one Forrest Gump...

... "That's all I have to say, about that."
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 2)

Postby vital » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:09 pm

danielrh wrote:me personally guys who I trust and respect like B-Man and Jose they like what they played it's looking like alot of the core (as you put it) has been addressed.


No offence but Jose said PES 2017 was incredible at E3, the game he had always been waiting for, or something along those lines. From what I saw of his Twitter feed he ended up mostly playing FIFA. I don't blame people because I'm sure it is very easy to get a misleading impression, especially so when playing like minded human opponents interested in a realistic game of football. Plus they change the game taking it far away from the early build they got to play. But the point is to not take positive early impressions too seriously. I notice B-man and others hedging their bets a lot more this year, which is smart, they've learned their lesson it seems. He's already saying it was far from perfect but the "general ethos" is better, and that they can only comment on what they played.

Unfortunately us pedants can already see the ingredients for yet another year where things seem promising but the game's fundamental limitations make it an ultimately joyless and short-lived experience. The irony is you have the sycophants here bending over backwards to avoid criticism, but you'll see some of them posting in the FIFA section a couple of months after release. :lol:

I feel like FIFA is the tortoise and PES is the hare, FIFA doesn't get much early hype because everyone is slagging it off for being too similar, but when the dust is settled it's FIFA that ends up being the only game that is playable online and represents decent value for money, partly because they keep on improving it well after release.
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 2)

Postby Pesmunki » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:15 pm

vital wrote:
But the point is to not take early impressions too seriously.


... oh the irony, the irony. :shock: :lol:
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 2)

Postby LynnMcG23 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:40 pm

vital wrote:
danielrh wrote:me personally guys who I trust and respect like B-Man and Jose they like what they played it's looking like alot of the core (as you put it) has been addressed.


No offence but Jose said PES 2017 was incredible at E3, the game he had always been waiting for, or something along those lines. From what I saw of his Twitter feed he ended up mostly playing FIFA. I don't blame people because I'm sure it is very easy to get a misleading impression, especially so when playing like minded human opponents interested in a realistic game of football. Plus they change the game taking it far away from the early build they got to play. But the point is to not take positive early impressions too seriously. I notice B-man and others hedging their bets a lot more this year, which is smart, they've learned their lesson it seems. He's already saying it was far from perfect but the "general ethos" is better, and that they can only comment on what they played.

Unfortunately us pedants can already see the ingredients for yet another year where things seem promising but the game's fundamental limitations make it an ultimately joyless and short-lived experience. The irony is you have the sycophants here bending over backwards to avoid criticism, but you'll see some of them posting in the FIFA section a couple of months after release. :lol:

I feel like FIFA is the tortoise and PES is the hare, FIFA doesn't get much early hype because everyone is slagging it off for being too similar, but when the dust is settled it's FIFA that ends up being the only game that is playable online and represents decent value for money, partly because they keep on improving it well after release.


Fifa online is truly awful especially when it keeps matching you up against Italians and Spanish with their god awful internet, PES this year is easily as good as Fifa regarding online infact it feels less laggy than EA's game. Your right though EA do improve it as on release it was truly awful now it's very playable offline after 6 or 7 patches to get it there. Still the game has tons of flaws none which you ever speak of funnily enough. It's as if it's only PES that has problems ;)
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 2)

Postby harmonyvid35 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:09 pm

LynnMcG23 wrote:
vital wrote:
danielrh wrote:me personally guys who I trust and respect like B-Man and Jose they like what they played it's looking like alot of the core (as you put it) has been addressed.


No offence but Jose said PES 2017 was incredible at E3, the game he had always been waiting for, or something along those lines. From what I saw of his Twitter feed he ended up mostly playing FIFA. I don't blame people because I'm sure it is very easy to get a misleading impression, especially so when playing like minded human opponents interested in a realistic game of football. Plus they change the game taking it far away from the early build they got to play. But the point is to not take positive early impressions too seriously. I notice B-man and others hedging their bets a lot more this year, which is smart, they've learned their lesson it seems. He's already saying it was far from perfect but the "general ethos" is better, and that they can only comment on what they played.

Unfortunately us pedants can already see the ingredients for yet another year where things seem promising but the game's fundamental limitations make it an ultimately joyless and short-lived experience. The irony is you have the sycophants here bending over backwards to avoid criticism, but you'll see some of them posting in the FIFA section a couple of months after release. :lol:

I feel like FIFA is the tortoise and PES is the hare, FIFA doesn't get much early hype because everyone is slagging it off for being too similar, but when the dust is settled it's FIFA that ends up being the only game that is playable online and represents decent value for money, partly because they keep on improving it well after release.


Fifa online is truly awful especially when it keeps matching you up against Italians and Spanish with their god awful internet, PES this year is easily as good as Fifa regarding online infact it feels less laggy than EA's game. Your right though EA do improve it as on release it was truly awful now it's very playable offline after 6 or 7 patches to get it there. Still the game has tons of flaws none which you ever speak of funnily enough. It's as if it's only PES that has problems ;)


My experience has been the complete opposite. Pes 2017 online has been a laggy mess every time I've played it, whereas Fifa 1v1, 2v2 & clubs has been pretty much flawless for me.
Maybe Pes online has improved over the last few months, but I have no interest in going back to it as I'd get no reward or fun factor with the overly assisted gameplay.

One thing I'd like to see Pes2018 try (steal from Fifa) is adding a connection quality bar to your opponent when matchmaking.
Maybe cherry picking opponents could become an issue with a much smaller user base, but withholding ratings & stats, and even player name on the initial matchmaking screen would defo help prevent that.
If it shows a good connection - great. If not then back out and try again.
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 2)

Postby Richard221177 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:47 pm

Came on to see there was half a dozen pages since yesterday afternoon so I thought there must be some news only to wade through the half a dozen pages of vital and pesmunki having a dick measuring contest. Joy
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 2)

Postby tahvo471 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:52 pm

Richard221177 wrote:Came on to see there was half a dozen pages since yesterday afternoon so I thought there must be some news only to wade through the half a dozen pages of vital and pesmunki having a dick measuring contest. Joy



My thoughts exactly. :roll:
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Re: PES 2018 NEWS, DISCUSSION, SCREENS AND VIDEO (Part 2)

Postby DLim » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:04 pm

Pesmunki wrote:
I'll sum it up like this now.

I know you're striving for "realistic" gaming. I'm on exactly that same page with you, as loads of your subscribers are, as you've rightly pointed out.

I just think its inconclusive that its "ALWAYS" an issue.

Some agree with you.

Some agree with me.

More importantly I think the "physical" coming together of players is the area that needs the bigger focus. It looks like with the new "shielding" animations and mechanics are getting the attention they need. How players tackle, battle for the ball, tussle, shoulder tackle etc this is what will improve things first, before "positioning" for positioning's sake.

I agree with the B-Man...

It's potentially the single biggest new feature that might, just might improve the gameplay to another level again.

And in the famous words of one Forrest Gump...

... "That's all I have to say, about that."


Firstly, big thanks to Pesmunki for the stellar work. I've been following the board quietly and like the past since PES 2015, I was hyped on what this year will bring. I saw the gameplay videos and read B-man's review and I like what read. However, reading about the midfield gaps did brought out disappointment and concerns. But Pesmunki, your tireless reports of evidences on player's positioning cured me. I signed up just to say thank you to you bro.

The midfield gaps were noticeable since PES 2015. Putting those across in words over a forum caused even bugger disruptive effect. I can see the gap in-game but wouldn't be thinking its an issue. More so won't be thinking that it's poor, or some say, lazy programming. To say that is just so unfair. Utterly unfair. Since 2015, anyone who has given it a chance would have noticed that PES has made strides in the genre. I do also agree with Daniel on the advance tactics stuff that is affecting such gaps. Regardless, I don't think it is a deal breaker and more importantly, not exploitable.

Talking about fundamentals.. fundamentals to me as a football gamer are; player models, player ID, stats, collision, ball physics, lightings, referees, goalkeepers don't make stupid mistakes.. these were Year on Year getting better and better with PES. FIFA is notorious for messing up these fundamentals... and their scripting.. is incredible. It's like FIFA since FIFA11 only aim is to make some who are poor playing football in real life plays well in video game to make them happy.

And for the records, if I don't ever post again... If you love FIFA and can invest so much time in it and turning blind eyes to where the fundamentals couldn't do right... don't come in and conveniently say that your repetitive feedbacks is a hoping to "help make PES better". It's just like what do you think of a Liverpool fan wishing Man united to sign Ronaldo and Morata so that they can challenge for title next season? I mean, Come on.. This is football, we love football. Video games or not, the culture doesn't work that way. Goodness, just let the fans and people who appreciates Konami's effort enjoy the game.

For me and my mates, we are long time football fans like everyone and only wanted an enjoyable football video game which allows us to express what we want on the pitch. Honestly, FIFA 08 did it but didn't last more than 2 versions. PES picked up since 2014 and does it again now. The effort they put in deserves respect and support. As much as many out there hates the two leading men on twitter, to an extend I feel it's just sheer jealousy, I'm convinced that the title is in good hands and moving in the right direction. Can't wait for beta!
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